Shotguns - Home Defense

I live in a commuter town - about 80% of the people commute to work everyday - which leaves neighborhoods ripe for burglary. There have been a number of break-ins and a few 'home invasions' because thieves thought that homes were empty, but weren't. An acquaintance of my wife was recently beaten-up (her husband as well) during a home break-in.

I'm looking into a little home defense. Now, the last time I fired a gun was in the military (basic qualifications and re-quals every few years). I'm good with a 9mm and an M16 and that's about all I know about firearms. I know that a pistol isn't the answer to home defense and an m-16 is out of the question, so I've been looking at shotguns; specifically the Mossberg 500 HS410. I like the spreader choke for over-penetration but don't know squat about pistol grips.

http://www.mossberg.com/images/products/SA/50359.jpg

Does anyone have an opinion on pistol grips? Easier or Harder than traditional pump action?

The gun is primarily for my wife and I want to make sure she's comfortable with it. I don't want to show her 200 different makes and models (doesn't give her any confidence if she she thinks that I'm clueless ;) ) so I'd like to narrow her choices down as much as possible.

I'm partial to the Remington 870 Express, but maybe I'm just old fashioned. It makes a great field gun, and is well suited for home defense sans pistol grips. It seems to me like it would be a bit unweildy. But again, I'm old fashioned.
As a personal preference, I would stay away from Mossbergs. I never felt that they were particularly well made.
[edit: never mind about my previous gauge recommendations.]

Just my $.02.

What's wrong with a pistol? While your shotgun choice is a very good one, long guns aren't always a great choice for home defense, because they aren't very wieldy in close quarters. A pistol means you have one hand free to open doors, hold the flashlight, sweep children behind you, and the like. A polymer .40 caliber is a good choice for home defence.
http://willtoexist.com/images/sa-vs-sw.jpg

One thing I can't stress enough is to properly secure firearms and ammunition from curious little fingers. And on top of the dresser is no good - I suggest at minimum a trigger lock, but a quick access safe (for a pistol) would be even better.
http://www.gunaccessories.com/Handgu.../sportsafe.jpg

IMHO, the best home defense choice you can make is a AR15 carbine. It's expensive and scarry looking, but the round capacity and leathality are there. Not to be viscious, but if you have to shoot someone, you want them to stop right now. Not to mention the intemidation factor, which might mean you don't have to fire a shot at all - always the best end result. (and an AR has essentially no recoil, the wife can be comfortable with it)
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/w...bcwa3f16m4.jpg

The best home defense firearm is and always will be a 12 gauge shotgun with a light load, such as bird shot. You have massive stopping power, you barely have to aim, and you won't accidentally kill family or neighbors. If you would prefer something that will fit nicely in your nightstand, I'd go with a .357 Magnum revolver loaded with hollow points. Both routes offer outstanding reliability, while automatic pistols and assault rifles are prone to jamming at the most inopportune moments. I have not yet taken my own advice; I have a Springfield .45 GAP XD automatic loaded with 230 grain Hydra-Shock JHPs in my nightstand. Since I've had it, it has jammed on me twice, so I have been thinking about picking up a 4" Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum and relegating the .45 to target practice.

Hydra-shock rounds are insane...by far the best round for killing anything, right now.

I'm focusing on the shotgun for a couple of reason... in a panic situation, the ability to hit a target, even a stationary one, is near impossible. Add a little inexperience and a big recoil and pistols just don't add up for me. I did look at a couple of .45's earlier but I think a shotgun with buckshot would be a bit more 'accurate'. I don't want rounds passing through walls, I want a spray & pray solution and unless I go with a SAW, I think a shotgun is the right path.

Plus, I read that a lot of home firearm uses against criminals doesn't end with a round being fired. The sight of an armed homeowner usually does the trick and I can't think of anything more intimidating than a mom aiming a shotgun at me and hearing that distinctive shotgun cocking sound.

Prices are pretty fair too. I'll need to look into locking options as I don't want a locked gun rack in the room. I'm sure there are some great new tools out there.

Some tips here...

Flip through the rest of the site as well. Some humor and advice to be had there.

I am no firearms expert. I haven't a clue which type of firearm would be best. Actually I think almost any would do fine.

Here is what I do know. A tool is only good if you are willing and able to use it. Before you go and buy a firearm that you expect your wife to use, go test them with her. Often ranges have a mechanism for renting a firearm for an hour or two. There are several instances where I have been uncomfortable with the feel or the trigger or the grips or the recoil of one of Clay's firearms and I would never use those particular models for home defense because I could never get comfortable with them.
I hate to say this but his shotguns are one of those guns. I would never pick up his shotgun for home defense, the thing kicks like a mule and isn't intuitive for me. I also wouldn't pick up his 9mm it doesn't fit my hand and in fact almost every time I shoot it my hand is a bloody mess afterward because of the way I have to hold it. This is why I think the wife should be involved in the decision. She needs to hold it and get a feel for the gun and if that means dragging her to 12 gun stores and having her hold 50 guns so be it. Tell her it's like shopping for shoes the gun has to fit the owner.

Both you and the wife need to practice practice practice with the firearm. It does no good in a panic situation to have to think about how to take off the safety and how to load the gun and........ This does not mean a short living room course for the wife, this means range time until she can use the tool effectively and efficiently. (Plan on this taking more than a single trip if your wife is unfamiliar with firearms)

Because you have small children, firearm safety can become a part of your tradition early and often. Teach the children that guns are not toys. There are several good gun safety programs offered by the NRA that are in a variety of age ranges I think. Look into ways of securing your firearm from inquisitive fingers but still in an accessable way. Not having small ones I don't know what would be best for your situation but there are ample resourses to help you with that. First and foremost I would talk to a local gun shop owner.

Finally if your wife does not become comfortable with the firearm then I would suggest other burglery deterant systems for your home such as a home security system with a panic button, and or a dog. I know growing up that our big black lab kept the teenage punks from harrassing us much more than the family firearms did.

I think I can step off my soap box now :)

Beaker

If the intruder isn't armed with a firearm, I'd prefer one of these:

http://www.optimafitness.co.uk/ishop...S-BAS-AS32.jpg

I want the gratification of turning the jackass into a pile of compressed bone fragments.

I've never owned a firearm, but I have thought about purchasing one in the past for the home.

I agree with several of the points mentioned previously.

1. The gun must fit the owner. When I purchased my Sig 9mm I went through 20 different handguns to find one that really fit my hands. Many were too big and it was difficult to reach the slide release, etc. Even the newer model of the same gun doesn't fit the same, so yeah try some out.

2. Mossberg shotguns tend to hold more capacity but are not made as well as Remington. I own a Mossberg 500A 12ga with pistol grips. It holds 8 rounds and kicks like a mule. The pistol grip just kills your wrists. It also has a heat shield that was constantly falling off so I had to weld it on. My experience with Remington is that they have a smoother action, jam less often, hold only a few less rounds (like five), and don't kick as much. I would recommend a composite stock though as the wood stock really adds to the weight of the gun which makes it intimidating for the user.

3. You will want something with good stopping power that won't travel too far. I recommend bird shot in a 12ga. The recoil may be an issue but I believe you can purchase accessories to lessen the recoil.

4. Your wife should spend some range time practicing with the weapon. You really don't want her to hesitate if she is in danger. I don't know the statistics but have heard that most homeowners injured or killed in burglary related accidents were done so with the homeowner's own firearm. So get some practice in so she won't hurt herself or have it taken away and used on her.

5. Make sure she won't shoot you by mistake. :) Your wife should be very aware of your schedule. You may want to establish protocol to make sure she knows it is you when you get home. If she is afraid, visual confirmation may not be enough.

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Originally Posted by [AK]Nuts

I'm focusing on the shotgun for a couple of reason... in a panic situation, the ability to hit a target, even a stationary one, is near impossible. Add a little inexperience and a big recoil and pistols just don't add up for me. I did look at a couple of .45's earlier but I think a shotgun with buckshot would be a bit more 'accurate'. I don't want rounds passing through walls, I want a spray & pray solution and unless I go with a SAW, I think a shotgun is the right path.

Plus, I read that a lot of home firearm uses against criminals doesn't end with a round being fired. The sight of an armed homeowner usually does the trick and I can't think of anything more intimidating than a mom aiming a shotgun at me and hearing that distinctive shotgun cocking sound.

Prices are pretty fair too. I'll need to look into locking options as I don't want a locked gun rack in the room. I'm sure there are some great new tools out there.

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Seems well thought out. Your shotgun choice is a good blend of power, ease of use, and affordability.



But I still think a pistol isn't a bad choice either. It's a lot harder for someone to grab a pistol or knock it out of the way if she's hesitant.

I will agree that a .45 is a poor choice for most females, it's just too big and the recoil too strong. But consider - the .40 cal was designed for female FBI agents and is now pretty much the standard law-enforcement caliber. Polymer frames are good because they flex when fired, further dampening recoil. I don't actually own one myself, since homedefense isn't really a need in small town WI. But at the competitive defensive pistol shoots I've gone too, the Springfield XD in .40 has been very popular, even with the female shooters. http://www.springfield-armory.com/im...D9501Large.jpg

(Myself, I use a CZ75 in 9mm mostly just for fun since home defense isn't really an issue here. But it also is the preferred pistol of the Swedish Bikini Team I've later learned :cheese: http://www.uspsa2.org/images/010701_...a_shooting.jpg

As to inexperience, live fire practice is always a good idea. For your wife, I suggest a minimum of two range sessions, followed by participation in an IDPA shoot if you get a pistol.
http://www.idpa.com/clublist.asp?state=CA
IDPA shoots are about the funnest thing you can ever do. It's a half-day live fire session where you engage in about 6 scenario's. Home invasion defense scenario's are commonly done. And yes, it's very safe to do. Cheap too - in my area it costs like $20 to do a session.

Just my 2 cents. Again, the shotgun is by no means a bad choice either, and does offer the advantage of requiring little range practice to figure out how to point and shoot. To be honest, with the recoil of a pump 12 gauge, I'm not sure it would be such a great idea to have your wife live fire with it anyway; once she does she may be intimidated by the recoil.

Ya, at the end of the day, she'll have to shoot a mix of everything to see what she's comfortable with. Hell, a little .22 may be the answer. All the talk about stopping power is nice, but most home burglars aren't going to stick around for a fight... if they even hear a shot, they will most likely run. Maybe I'll just buy her a block of BlackCat Firecrackers!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [AK]Nuts

I live in a commuter town - about 80% of the people commute to work everyday - which leaves neighborhoods ripe for burglary. There have been a number of break-ins and a few 'home invasions' because thieves thought that homes were empty, but weren't. An acquaintance of my wife was recently beaten-up (her husband as well) during a home break-in.
Does anyone have an opinion on pistol grips? Easier or Harder than traditional pump action?

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One thing I am curious about is what happened? What time, how many, what entrance way, mode of entry, age, weapons, mode of operation, goods/items stolen, duration of incident, etc. Knowledge is power - how do these creeps operate?

Interesting experiment with buckshot here: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Based on these findings, I must retract my suggestion for a 12 gauge home defense load. Birdshot might not be the best choice for dealing with a home invader, but, at point-blank range, it will still do an awful lot of damage. My favorite conclusion in the report: "I 'racked' the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels. Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint."

All this got me thinking about Cheney shooting his pal in the face, which led me to another fun science experiment: http://www.myscienceproject.org/shooting.html

Good article and subsequent discussion regarding 12ga load choice for home defense: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37b5daa50a0f.htm

If your looking for a nice pistol I would recommend the H&K Tactical, this is by far my favorite handgun. Very comfortable good stopping power and not nearly the recoil of alot of other pistols. http://www.hk-usa.com/index.jsp?loc=...tNumber=704504 Definitely not the least expensive you will find but well worth the investment.

Okay, I think I've settled on a weapon for the Mrs.:

http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/t...-weapon-system
http://techgadgetforums.com/files/weapons_system.jpg

(Nice embedded youtube video on site)

Spray and Pray, Amen!

The tech is neat, but the promo video is unintentionally funny.

I'm going to start engineering one that throws bowling balls... :uzi:

For us Desert Combat fans, Saiga makes an excellent .410 with a semiautomatic Kalishnikov-type action. Inexpensive, too. (Folding stock even!)

http://club.guns.ru/images/saiga410k-sm.jpg

I think a weapon of this type with a Surefire tactical flashlight/laser combo with a squeeze tapeswitch on the forestock would be an ideal setup for a woman. It packs a wallop, is easy to control, and the flashlight/laser would make it easy for her to see what she's shooting at. Hope this helps.

As an aside, I think I'm going to pick up a SIG 556 after the first of the year when they start hitting the shelves. (I can't wait!)

http://www.sigarms.com/images/catalo...ftside16in.jpg

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Originally Posted by [AK]Sonic Boom

For us Desert Combat fans, Saiga makes an excellent .410 with a semiautomatic Kalishnikov-type action. Inexpensive, too. (Folding stock even!)

http://club.guns.ru/images/saiga410k-sm.jpg

I think a weapon of this type with a Surefire tactical flashlight/laser combo with a squeeze tapeswitch on the forestock would be an ideal setup for a woman. It packs a wallop, is easy to control, and the flashlight/laser would make it easy for her to see what she's shooting at. Hope this helps.

As an aside, I think I'm going to pick up a SIG 556 after the first of the year when they start hitting the shelves. (I can't wait!)

http://www.sigarms.com/images/catalo...ftside16in.jpg

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Nice little rifle, though I still haven't figured out why they changed the stock to an AR carbine stock, rather than the handy folder.

I heard a rumor that AUG's might start reappearing - any news on that?

Regarding your advise for Mrs. Nuts, not bad. In the end, the lass needs a boom stick she can figure out how to use and be comfortable with. And the AK weapon design system is about as foolproof as it gets.

http://www.steyr-mannlicher.com/uplo...2_508mm_05.jpg

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Originally Posted by [AK]Clay

Nice little rifle, though I still haven't figured out why they changed the stock to an AR carbine stock, rather than the handy folder.

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From the people I've talked to and the things I've read, this iteration has an AR/CAR stock and AR mag because SIG is going for the next big US government rifle contract.

The SIG 550-series rifles also have a gas-operated Kalishnikov-type action, which means there isn't a recoil spring in the stock ala AR/M-16... so there is no earthly reason to use an AR stock other than to not freak out the government procurement wonks. I've also heard that SIG has a paratrooper side-folding stock that will be available for the 556, just like all the other 550's.

Regarding the Steyer-AUG, I can't see them reappearing ever, unless they somehow manage to get manufactured in the US. Remember, Bush 41 banned all forieign made "assault rifle" imports in about 1991 after the shootings in L.A. (See, it isn't just the Democrats! ;-) )

I had a couple of HK-91's back then with the SG3 sniper mods... oh, what they they are worth today! I only paid $750 apiece for them. (sigh.) I traded them to my friend for something stupid and he traded them for a PSG-1, which he still has. He said he'd sell it to me for the low, low price of $12,000...

http://www.emeraldesigns.com/matchup/pics/psg1_1.jpg

Back on the .410 thing, I have a Marine Corps buddy who says he prefered using a .410 as an entry weapon in Iraq for the very same reasons and more. He said it packs a wallop with low recoil and has a tight enough pattern that you can still drop someone running away from you at 15 yards. What he really liked the most, though, was the lightweight ammo, which makes a big difference when you have to carry it around all day. I'm going to be at his house tonight watching UFC on PPV and eating Alaskan King Crab. (!) I'll ask him which weapon he specifically used.

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Originally Posted by beaker

Finally if your wife does not become comfortable with the firearm then I would suggest other burglery deterant systems for your home such as a home security system with a panic button, and or a dog. I know growing up that our big black lab kept the teenage punks from harrassing us much more than the family firearms did.

Beaker

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I have to agree about the dog part. Being a gun-phobe, I'm probably a bit biased, but here's my thought on it..

Having a gun to protect you assumes that the bad guy has gotten into your house and is now face-to-face with you. It also assumes that you were either a) right by your gun or b) had enough time to get to your gun before the bad guy got to you. This is not a scenario that appeals to me.

I am a female that lives alone, and I have 2 Doberman Pinschers. Now, I got these dogs as companions and not at all for 'guard dog' purposes, but I'll tell ya, I feel safer having them in the house with me. The are very alert and protective of the house, yard, and myself, and the sound of two of them barking is most likely going to turn away any baddy who is thinking of breaking in my house. And if someone braves it and comes in anyway? Well, they'll have 2 very large and very angry dobermans to deal with.

Like I said, just my 2 cents....having a dog might be a bit more pricey in the long run, but they are kid-friendly and come with lots of bonuses (my male is a great cuddler :) ).

-Lindsay

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Originally Posted by Swae

Like I said, just my 2 cents....having a dog might be a bit more pricey in the long run, but they are kid-friendly and come with lots of bonuses (my male is a great cuddler :) ).

-Lindsay

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Yeah, but a gun won't $%^& on the rug! ;)

Here's a picture of my son Joe (aka GIJoe, Brorlesley, Ailennis) with his new .22.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/129/3...53d75fb536.jpg