http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/06/D8I2PI2O0.html
You would think we would have learned our lesson with North Korea. The politics of appeasement continues...
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http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/06/D8I2PI2O0.html
You would think we would have learned our lesson with North Korea. The politics of appeasement continues...
What technology, exactly?
Are we going to build power plants for them so that they never enrich the uranium themselves (which they would probably keep doing secretly anyway)? Or are we just trying to save some face with Muslimites?
There are types of reactors which are essentially useless as a bridge to a bomb. I suspect this is the sort of technology which is being offered.
Since everyone knows that the Iranians are still going to pursue a bomb anyway, this is a lose-nothing offer for the US. It makes us look as though we are sincerely trying.
We tried this same kind of "deal" with the North Koreans under the Clinton administration.
So... yeah.
As long as theres really no way to reverse engineer it, then I'd say its good P.R.
Actually it the NK deal was nothing like this one. Also:
A) I don't expect the Iranians to accept.
B) I think the US knows they won't accept.
C) I think this is a well calculated PR move.
D) If they DO accept, there will be no letdown in monitoring - and certianly no end of suspicion - unlike under the Clinton administration with NK.
So...yeah. It's different.
I think this is a great move from a political standpoint. Im impressed so many countries signed on. Kudo's to the Bush admin for respecting the rest of the world's opinions for once. Very clever move from a normally "we'll jes blow ur shit up" administration.
I think Iran may actually except the deal to save face from there premature showing of cards. This will buy themselves more time to tinker out of the worlds spotlight.
These guys will be able to make a bomb before long no matter what anyone does less "blow there shit up" of course.
They dont have to "reverse engineer" anything when Russia is basically walking them thru all the processes. Russia has been selling weapons etc to this part of the world for years. Nuclear tech just being the most talked about.
I dont think many people understand how badly Russia and China do NOT want us in Iran. Both countries have vested interest in this region. There are and have been alot of behind the scenes deals going down over there everyday.
I personally think if we invaded Iran, China would then be forced to play a hand they do not want to play just yet. Also one must consider that Russia and China now are in bed together. They even held some mutual wargames last year with around 15000troops, armor and jets etc. Who woulda thunk??
One must also consider China is and has been very HUNGRY for natural resources. They have been rather silently trying to secure them all over the globe for quite a few years now.. They will do anything to keep there incredible "industrial revolution" steaming ahead. Iran just happens to be a country of premium interest to them. South America and Africa are some other notible places they are moving in on, successfully at that i might add. Read some of the Venez prez latest statements for example.
This rhetoric may appease the world but does nothing to slow down some very interesting Alliances that are forming in that part of the world and beyond.
Iran simply sees how North Korea can threaten their way through global economics. 'We've got Weapon Sytem XYZ, and we're going to use it!... unless of course, you give us discounts on goods A, B, & C". Just once I'd like to see an American President step up and tell these third-world, stone-age creatins to blow it out their collective ass. Iran and North Korea have failed to contribute anything to the greater good of the world. Their culture and society do not better the human condition and no one would honestly miss them if we wiped them off the planet.
America is a nation of warriors. We have always fought wars. Any hint that we are a peacefull people is just a load of steaming dog crap. Simply look at our history. Embrace it. We are generous when you are nice, otherwise we're going to piss all over you. And that's exactly how we should threat Iran and NK. Screw 'em. And that policy works. Ask Momar Quadhfi (sp?) in Libiya. He was all pro-terrorism in the mid-80's, supporting the bombings of American Soldiers in West Germany. That is until Ronald Reagan blew the crap out Momar's houses killing his wives and kids. That action certainly fixed his little red wagon, didn't it?
I guaran-damn-tee it.... drop on small-scale tactical nuke in Iran and see what happens. No one is going to issue a trade embargo against us... they need our fat wallets. No one is going to retaliate.... we have the most powerful military in the history of man and we're using them for piss-ant little affairs like Iraq security patrols and border guards. Screw it! Let's take the gloves off and waken the sleeping giants. The world needs an enemy... let's put on our masks and go to town!
Bold words spoken from the comfort of an bullet and bomb scar free air conditioned office whilst sitting in a plush chair. You go cowboy! :D
Lets give the muslim community more reason to HATE us man. As if 4 administrations in a row havent done enough already WOOHOO!! Never mind all the sorted "projects" going on over there affiliated with our governnent. I mean heck them wanting to start WW3 so that billions of people will die and Islam will have a chance to rise and riegn supreme is just a myth! No worries man!!
It would take ALOT of bombs to do what you describe for sure...why not just start rounding them up and toss em in ovens etc? :rolleyes: To want to wipe them off the map without exhausting all diplomatic measures is quite frankly disturbing. Judging all of them so generally as a whole is rather unfair ta boot. Just as bad attitudes and poor policies of leaders fuel unfounded hatred towards the populations as a whole on both sides. The information age is lessoning these impacts tho it doesnt magically douse age old flames.
A "tactical" bombing would be our a typical short term narrow minded solution. Who cares if future americans have to pay the price for it right? That solution really falls right in line with America's current "on demand" society nicely. Im sure they wont retaliate and blow Israel off the map for "fear" of us! Im sure thru the information age they will never learn how best to take advantage of our lax society and inflict maximum casualties one way or the other.
Get out of the dam 80's and wake up bro! We are upon a new world order!! Were not the only ones with bombs!! In fact who needs bombs anymore? We actually have to answer to the world when we act more then ever before! Oh and guess what we may not RULE the roost forever more and could even possibly have to PAY for all the crimes that have been commited worldwide in the name of U.S.A. There are over 3+ BILLION people coming of age and our materialistic greedy ways are FINANCING the awakening!! Wonder how long before Water is more precious then OIL?? Theres some food for thought...
Also im sorry but I just dont see this nation of warriors you speak of. I dont feel like were of the same backbone then even a generation or two before us. Yeah we have guns in many many homes but i challenge you to imagine some of the folks you see from day to day with one in there hands. We are still a great and powerfull nation and have a military to be proud of yet for sure. All im saying is there has been a steady rate of deterioration of our core values which in turn makes us weak IMO. Were to damn divided and growing more and more so everyday.
Im not anti American im just an American citizen studying what being American means to the rest of the world these days. Im finding alot of interesting tracks to say the least.
Heres some interesting NON corporate input on the subject im studying:
It is some unbiased reporting from Iraq. These guys have been there for over 8months ongoing.
http://www.dahrjamailiraq.com/multi_..._3_14_2006.php
PS dont be fooled into thinking China trade with us will dictate policy in our favor forever. In fact they are starting to get an edge on us in that reguard and they are also brokering deals all over the globe to further increase that type of leverage.
/end sporadic rant for now!
I suggest you donate to MoveOn.org... they are really right up your alley.Quote:
Originally Posted by [AK]Cruiser
Not that I'm in agreement with Nuts position either, but if we had followed your logic in "the 80's"... we would have lost the Cold War. Although I do agree with your point on core value deterioration, at least to a certain extent. Much of that is co-mingled in our flawed immigration policies that placate the minority instead of encouraging adoption of our values. Understanding and accepting cultural differences of immigrants shouldn't mean the abandonment of our own for the sake of political correctness.
My chair isn't all that plush, thank you! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by [AK]Cruiser
Muslims certainly won't likes us just because we are friendly too them. That kind of feel-good politics has never, ever, in the history of mankind worked. It sounds all lofty and noble, but good intentions and noble actions will never make a stone-aged civilization suddenly fall in love with us. Only power and might will keep them in check. How much money do we give? How many trade packages do we give? How much food? How much medicine? These things sound good, but they never win the hearts of men. And you know what? We don't have to. Who said that we have to be buddy-buddy with every po-dunk, baby-murdering warlord on the planet?Quote:
Originally Posted by [AK]Cruiser
And as far as Muslims go, they are just pissed off because Allah promised them the world and Christians put them in their place. The were all nice and friendly when they were conquering the Middle East, Africa and Europe... But once they were stomped into mudholes and pushed back their crappy little countries, their honor was ruined and they had no choice but be piss-ass little terrorists that they are now. They can't figure out why Allah hasn't delivered them the globe and can come up with only one explanations..... SATAN! And who could SATAN be? The U.S. (or whoever is better than they are). Muslims honestly believe that and no amount of friendly hugs and free reach-arounds is ever going to change that.
Whoa... rounding up jews based on their religion and exterminating is far different that the removal of a ruling class of people bent on the destruction of peaceful nation's. And while I have no problem with collateral damage, I'm certainly not condoning the wholesale slaughter of an entire race. Diplomatic measure don't work. If they did, we would never have war.Quote:
Originally Posted by [AK]Cruiser
'Typical'... as in what we usually do. And as we've been doing it for 250 years and have reached the top of the mountain, it sounds like it's a good solution. Perhaps we should be like France, Spain, or England? Once great nation's that now pale in comparison to their former glory. As far as Isreal, we'll they are one of the few countries that have the balls to take action. What other people could survive for so long whilst surrounded by baby-killing thugs?Quote:
Originally Posted by [AK]Cruiser
We are the only ones with 'real' bombs. We can easily defend ourselves and remove any threat we wished.... if we take our gloves off. and we don't have to answer to the world. Screw the U.N. The whole organization is a joke. The minute they let murderers and thieves and baby-killers into the global political arena, it was time to get out. The U.N. is based on the premise that countries could get together and settle things in a democractic fashion, yet the countries that are involved in the U.N. are some of the most brutal and violent fascist regimes on the planet... how do we expect them to act like civilized countries and further more, what do we care about what they say? And a big curse on you for evening thinking about water becoming more expensive than gas. How would I pay for Pops Murphy's new Porsche?Quote:
Originally Posted by [AK]Cruiser
A warrior nation doesn't mean that every man, woman, and child is a natural born killer. It simply means that we fight wars and we like to fight them. If we didn't, we wouldn't be involved in armed combat almost every year since the founding of our nation. We have major military campagins every few years and big wars every couple of decades. We love war and we reap the beneifts of it. To think that we are a peacefull people is just wrong. However, when we fight wars we generally do it with good intent and feel justified in our cause.Quote:
Originally Posted by [AK]Cruiser
I've never cared what other countries think of us. Those pussies that travel to Europe and want to make sure that no one knows their Americans sickens me. If America is somehow in decline, it's because liberals have told us that we should be ashamed of our success. Liberals believe that success can only come because you are denying the liberties of others. That somehow we are to blame for starvation in Africa just because we eat good in the states. We'll screw that! We eat good and live good because we're number one, baby! And until more Americans quit worrying about what other countries think and start taking a little pride in this great country and the sacrafices our forefathers gave to make it that way, then yes... America is on a decline.Quote:
Originally Posted by [AK]Cruiser
Americans need to do a little chest beating and start to grow a spine and a set of brass balls. Too many of my fellow country men are apologetic and spend too much time trying to wear other peoples' shoes, trying to understand how others see us and what people 'feel'. We'll screw that! This is the greatest frickin country in the world. Little kids in the slums of Poland don't dream of moving to Egypt. Families aren't jumping the border to live in the paradise of Ubakabakstan. Dads are seking better lives in Laos. Nope... they come here. They always have and always will. No other nation has been a shining city on the hill like the United States. We are a beacon of hope to a world that's in the shitter. Period.
I don't think I'd classify these Middle Eastern countries as being in the "stone age", but I do think the radical Islam is what is fueling instability and hatred of the US. The US is hoping that we can turn the region into a more secular society (like Turkey). As long as you have these theocracies like Iran - where religious based hatred of anything anti-Islam is taught to children and force fed to it's population you will have these problems.
That being said - I still don't think it's a good idea to be forking over free technology and cash on the promise that Iran is going to play nice and abandon it's nuclear weapons program.
It's a delaying tactic that Iran will use to it's advantage and the outcome will likely be Iran with our money in their pockets, our technology AND a nuclear weapon. At that point the military options get a little trickier.
That they're getting tech from someone is a given. It's not even up for debate. Someone will give them the tech. If not us, Russia, France, or Germany.
To partially address Cruiser's post - I don't particularly care if the US is liked around the world. I don't think it's prudent to base our policies on what will appease the most people.
I don't think bombing the crap out of them without good reason is the solution either. Getting a nuke, or being close to getting a nuke is good enough for me.
U.N.: We should've cut them off a while ago, we certainly should now after a U.N. officials outburst the other day.
Liberals: Coulter's new book, and her herself, says it best. They've been using wives of men who died in 9/11, Cindy Sheehan and others who are "politically immune" because of the "tragedies" they've gone through... they've been hiding behind these people. Enough is enough, we need to stop giving these people who've gone through "great tragedies" a free pass to slam the presidency and our country, specially since they've been making money of doing it. Liberals need to grow some balls and if they have something to say, say it for their damn selves.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the above discussion and should be posted in it's own thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by [AK]Slaughter
Liberals were mentioned, thus that was posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by [AK]Bribo
Technically my U.N. comment could be construed as having nothing to do with this post either.
Very true, but I thought it inhumane to slam you for off-topic trolling twice in the same post. :lol2:Quote:
Originally Posted by [AK]Slaughter
<3Quote:
Originally Posted by [AK]Bribo
Its not wanting the rest of the world to like us so much as not having them HATE us so much! Having MORE of our boys DYING in the name of what??
Were fueling them with BULLSHIT propaganda and fanning the flames just being there!! Let the dust fall where it may on there terms without our intervention.
Let the U.N. and all these neighboring countries deal with this dickhead.
We dont even need the oil from that region were simply there for GREED. OUR "needs" that were surrounded by in our daily lives help to fuel this greed besides the government/corporate extents.
Interesting tidbit, did you know we dont even get 25% of our oil from the middle east? Just under 60% comes from South America and Africa. Indirectly we probably consume a ton more from the middle east because of all the oil used by China to make all the BILLIONS of things we
just HAVE to have at our disposal..
Im not a lefty either i cant stand most liberal's. Call me what you want im simply taking issue with all the bullshit that goes on around the world in our name.
Im also concerned that some other rather large modernized countries are not gonna stand for our Middle Eastern Conquest! Hence the Russia/China references.
Cold war was then, this is now! Different time and age man. Would it be so terrible to be the great country that we are without FORCING our will all over the globe?? What if we put some energy into advancing ourselves here at home? We lead in alot of ways but are falling behind in many others. I think everyone would agree we've got some serious issues here at home. We really could stand to better prepare for the new age that is upon us as well.
You mock the water statement, do you know that the the mighty Yangtze River, is "cancerous"? Do you know how much water this is to China???
http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=801672006
Look up or get a hold of a world freshwater map. Its very interesting to say the least.
You wanna see what kind of policy goes on behind the scenes all over the globe look up Nugan Hand bank. Do some digging and u will see some of the twisted web created in the name of patriotism, anti communism, greed and the drug trade. Starting down that path will lead you to discover alot of things you wont see in mainstream media but that is not to say there werent many reports along the way in prominent asian/aussie and european papers. Just not ours...
Nugan Hand bank seems to have been a worldwide front for the CIA from the late 60's until its demise in the early 80's. It has links from all corners of the world with common threads being CIA affiliation, current and Ex military generals/admirals etc, arms deals, drug trafficing, money laundering and all sorts of good natured meddling including starting a few wars! (of good intent of course)
Example:
This "bank" took deposits from all corners of the globe for "investing" etc. Were talking BILLIONS of dollars collected from all over the world with "CIA" and patriotism written all over it. They even stole millions of dollars from the contractors (many american) working middle eastern oil boom of that era. The taking of interest isnt allowed there so these guys would collect the money, (cash) turn it into travelers checks and send it to Hong Kong branches to be deposited where it to never return.. This is one of ooodles of examples mind u!
The way this ties into our conversation is this "bank" may be the very one that helped to broker the weapons sold to Iran i.e. the infamous Iran Contra affair and it's a source for many example's of "policy" we could do without.
Just think if we invade Iran our boy's will be getting shot by weapons WE sold to em... oh wait better not bad mouth Reagon's admin in here now eh?
Im actually enjoying this discussion for the record. I just dont subsribe to the taking on the world view you portray Nuts. It reaks of old school and just plain isnt necessary anymore. I am old fashioned in many ways tho go figure..
I doubt any amount of words between us would have us agree and in fact we are just slinging alot of opinions back and forth but i would like to chat a bit more about it.
Maybe you would take the time to read this http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13123358...wsweek/page/3/ and comment.
This is the left philosophy of appeasement and self blame. Its falsehoods are numerous on every account. Being in Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. What you and many with your thought process don't understand is that anything short of never leaving our own borders and adopting fundamentalist Islam would satisfy these imbeciles. You can't placate them, you can't appease them, and you certainly can't reason and negotiate with them. The sooner you understand those concepts, the sooner you can come to the reality of the situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by [AK]Cruiser
[quote]
Let the U.N. and all these neighboring countries deal with this dickhead.
[/qoute]
This has to be the most ignorant statement you've made in this thread. Yes, because the UN has such a long list of successes to base this concept on. Great idea. :rolleyes:
Cruizer.. these statements you are making you look more foolish on the subject by the line. Yes, we are there for the "cheap oil". Please move on the MoveOn.org Ignorant Talking Point #14Quote:
We dont even need the oil from that region were simply there for GREED. OUR "needs" that were surrounded by in our daily lives help to fuel this greed besides the government/corporate extents.
Well you certainly have the same thought process and ideals that they demonstrate.Quote:
Im not a lefty either i cant stand most liberal's. Call me what you want im simply taking issue with all the bullshit that goes on around the world in our name.
Are you insane? What "conquest'?? We aren't occupying any nation, we aren't conquering any land, and we aren't inserting our own government. Iraqi's VOTED. A REAL ELECTION. Something they have not experienced before. They will get to choose their own future now as long as we support them long enough to get their country back up on it's feet.Quote:
Im also concerned that some other rather large modernized countries are not gonna stand for our Middle Eastern Conquest! Hence the Russia/China references.
What we do abroad has nothing to do with what we do at home. One is not mutually exclusive or inclusive of the other. We'll always have "problems" and "issues" to deal with. Nothing has changed. "A different time and age man" has no underlying meaning to the situation at hand.Quote:
Cold war was then, this is now! Different time and age man. Would it be so terrible to be the great country that we are without FORCING our will all over the globe?? What if we put some energy into advancing ourselves here at home? We lead in alot of ways but are falling behind in many others. I think everyone would agree we've got some serious issues here at home. We really could stand to better prepare for the new age that is upon us as well.
Hylander your to much about what side your on to have a convo about this i fear.
We could stand to take some time off from our abroad ventures with all our issues at home. The fact that you agree us being there had nothing to do with 9/11 proves my point. Im not saying we shouldnt have done some of what we've done already or even that we should quit pursuing global agenda's in general. Im only refering to the questionable policies at this point if you read instead of generalize and classify me you would see that.
Your to far up the Right wing's ass to see clearly the broad based agenda im afraid in reguards to why were there since your refutal is very mainstream Rush caller orientated. No offense man. Your part of a large majority tho so i guess thats good?
I dont see any fruit coming from our discussions on the matter to be honest based on your reply. I would simply extend your ability to further liberal bash and ive got better things to do.
Ill continue to discuss this elseware with people that arent so wrapped up in party affiliation to have an open unbiased discussions on world affairs.
Well if you are looking for someone more ignorant on the subject, who doesn't read history, buys into liberal talking points and not point out blatantly incorrect assertions, then you are probably right.Quote:
Originally Posted by [AK]Cruiser
You can't be a little bit pregnant. You either defend your interests abroad, or you don't. You either engage in International Economic and Political arenas or you don't. There is a reason we are the worlds lone super power, and it's not because we "take some time off".Quote:
We could stand to take some time off from our abroad ventures with all our issues at home. The fact that you agree us being there had nothing to do with 9/11 proves my point. Im not saying we shouldnt have done some of what we've done already or even that we should quit pursuing global agenda's in general. Im only refering to the questionable policies at this point if you read instead of generalize and classify me you would see that.
And you seem too blind, or selectively ignore the facts, to see you buy into the lefts false fallacies and mantra without understanding the actual circumstances. I'm way more conservative than George W. Bush on most issues, I can certainly tell you that. I'm no Bush "fanboy" and I can list numerous items I'm in much disagreement on in this administration. The war on terror is NOT one of them. The lame excuse for immigration policy I most certainly am. The size of government spending (outside military expenditures necessary for the war) is another.Quote:
Your to far up the Right wing's ass to see clearly the broad based agenda im afraid in reguards to why were there since your refutal is very mainstream Rush caller orientated. No offense man. Your part of a large majority tho so i guess thats good?
That's your prerogative. If you don't like responses to your opinions and factually incorrect statements, you shouldn't post them. The warning is on the forum itself I do believe. :uzi:Quote:
I dont see any fruit coming from our discussions on the matter to be honest based on your reply. I would simply extend your ability to further liberal bash and ive got better things to do.
Ill continue to discuss this elseware with people that arent so wrapped up in party affiliation to have an open unbiased discussions on world affairs.
Quote:
Well if you are looking for someone more ignorant on the subject, who doesn't read history, buys into liberal talking points and not point out blatantly incorrect assertions, then you are probably right. Quote:
Your post say it all, you seem educated for sure but your aggresive manner is unbecoming and i dont see how fueling it time and again would bear fruit sry. I look at the world objectively now and that drives party driven guys like you nuts.
Post some facts, counter mine that would be discussion. So far just bashing really. You cant even post without indicating something about liberal's or the left lol. Weaksauce bro.
Ive noticed alot of you right wing guys do that crap all they do is HAMMER ther points accross, and i mean literally talk over whoever is being interviewed to the point there is NO discussion.
Saying that someone other than you is bound to be ignorant says everything bro. Those ignorant folks i talk to overseas and what not would rip you a new one quite handily, i see it all the time. Same Elitest arguements blah blah. Again your not alone at least.
Ill have you know i listen and watch right wing media all the time to because most the liberal's drive me nuts now theres irony..
Im disgusted with how much right wingers are focusing on liberal bashing tho and i see you have no problem embracing it either lol.
Yes you have reminded me why i stopped posting here in this particular forum indeed.
http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/gt/FruitSet/FruitSet001.jpg or http://www.neth.de/Pics/PoD/2003_02/030205_bf_7485.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by [AK]Cruiser
;)
I'm not being aggressive, I'm simply countering points that are false factually or that I believe are incorrect.
Which ones do I need to repeat? The FACT that we aren't "conquering" Iraq? The FACT that we didn't go to war for "cheap oil"? The FACT that we are a global super power and must protect our interests internationally at all times? The FACT that appeasement has historically been proven to be a losing proposition?Quote:
Post some facts, counter mine that would be discussion.
"Bashing" your position on the issues and incorrect statements only.Quote:
So far just bashing really.
Then make a statement that isn't read on the front page of MoveOn.org and support it with factual information. Stating that we are out "conquering" in the world hardly justifies taking your stance on this topic as being seriously educated on the issues.Quote:
You cant even post without indicating something about liberal's or left
If you want political correct group huggies responses, you aren't going to get them from me, sorry.Quote:
Saying that someone other than you is bound to be ignorant and what not says everything bro.
:rolleyes:Quote:
Those ignorant folks i talk to overseas and what not would rip you a new one quite handily, i see it all the time.
Because your statements are exposed as being factually flawed?Quote:
Yes you have reminded me why i stopped posting here in this particular forum.
You confuse FACTS and Opinions my friend. Nothing you have posted is FACT its your opinion and nothing more.
Quote:
Which ones do I need to repeat? The FACT that we aren't "conquering" Iraq? The FACT that we didn't go to war for "cheap oil"? The FACT that we are a global super power and must protect our interests internationally at all times? The FACT that appeasement has historically been proven to be a losing proposition?
*sigh*Quote:
Originally Posted by [AK]Cruiser
"The FACT that we aren't "conquering" Iraq?"
Verifiable. If you want to get absolute definition, we did conquer the Iraqi Army and we did conquer Saddam's regime. We are not conquering in the sense of taking permanent control and absorbing it into our own nation. We did not conquer "Iraq".
"The FACT that we didn't go to war for "cheap oil"?"
Look at the gas prices. :lol2:
Verifiable. We never had any intention of taking possession of Iraq's oil fields. In fact, the plan called for their oil revenues to be used for reconstruction and some repayment to the US for our expenditures. The freely elected government of Iraq has appointed Ministers for this industry.
"The FACT that we are a global super power"
Verifiable by definition of a super power: "A superpower is a state with the first rank in the international system and the ability to influence events and project power on a worldwide scale." You support that with your own statements of our international influence and system of involvement.
"The FACT that appeasement has historically been proven to be a losing proposition?"
Verifiable, but sorry.. I can't type out all the instances in history where appeasement has been proven a failure. You'll have to do your own reading on that one. I certainly can't think of one where it was a success.
Appeasement to the south after the Civil war... Blacks were in office, etc. Once the north pulled troops out to keep a northern president the south essentially went back to the way things were.
Theres an example, Hy. ;)
Ok i should have said your counters to my points were not facts.
Since your adamant on posting crap i feel compelled to reply, screw it.
I never said we were conquering Iraq. Quit putting words in my mouth. To invade countries, impose your ways of thinking, destroy everything in sight and then build bases could be a type of conquest if you take a broader view.
Just FYI its pretty widely accepted the BASES weve built in Iraq will be there for at LEAST a Decade. See article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12441799/site/newsweek/
What do we need them there for?
Only a fool would believe we dont manipulate governments all over the world as we will do in Iraq for the forseeable future. Mini conquest all over the globe really... From the cozy comforts of our not quite permanent bases no less...
The pen is mightier then the sword always has and always will be. Even so nobody said anything about appeasing away all of our problems. It was simply said its not a crime to do things with a little more concern for world views on matters considering the rise of some very powerful nations in our time. Only a fool would disreguard these up and coming nations and think we can handle ANYTHING that is thrown at us.
I never said we were after cheap oil either, i said we dont NEED there oil implying that were there for GREED and POWER and perhaps for security/us or them reasons.
Where did i argue that were the most powerful nation in the world?? WTF is wrong with you. Where did i question this? I simply said we may not always be that way, not that we werent and havent been. You can focus more at home and less abroad to dont give me that pregnant or not crap man what is that mess..
Argue my points all you want, quit LABELING me, quit telling me where i would fit in and lastly dont call the people i associate with ignorant just because they dont see the world as you do. Your comments are extreme to say the least considering the universities these folks have attended.
NONE of the above are necessary for us to converse and in fact are the VERY reason you are easily pegged as someone not even worth going there with.
A poor and highly inaccurate one none the less...Quote:
Originally Posted by [AK]Slaughter
"Im also concerned that some other rather large modernized countries are not gonna stand for our Middle Eastern Conquest!"Quote:
Originally Posted by [AK]Cruiser
Do you know how long we've had military bases in other countries Cruizer?Quote:
Just FYI its pretty widely accepted the BASES weve built in Iraq will be there for at LEAST a Decade. See article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12441799/site/newsweek/
What do we need them there for?
As for the rest of your rant, you should at least remember what you wrote if you are going to try and defend it, let alone comprehending my side. You're really getting quite incoherent with your 'argument'.
Yet you keep doing so.... :egg:Quote:
NONE of the above are necessary for us to converse and in fact are the VERY reason you are easily pegged as someone not even worth going there with.
I dont even think you read my post or if you do you have some kind of automatic off switch in your head complete with and auto response mechanism because really all ive seen from you are just very strong biased opinions with dashes of slamming. Much of which is regurgitated crap.
"Do you know how long we've had military bases in other countries Cruizer?"
yeah, and? your point?
NM, ill attempt to make one for u.
Conquest as in spreading our bases to even more to places where there not even wanted in order to further push our elitiest views and opinions on the world WOOT!! Again there may be a broader agenda at hand. Maybe im using the word inappropriately, im not perfect but i thought it was fair to use in that context. If you have bases in a country, are pulling the strings of the government and your general presence dictates what happens in the region couldnt that be considered conquered in a way? I hadnt thought about it like that till you made me consider my words more carefully.
So if i read your words then id have to guess you think these bases are strategic in protecting our interest around the world right?
So tell me Hylander, what in Iraq was/is ours to protect when we decided to build these bases that will be there for DECADES? Since were only there in the interest of Iraqi's and all why are they needed>?
Id like to hear this. Will you discuss this or just slam me again?
Tell me exactly where im being incoherent and ill be glad to try and clarify. Granted im not the most eloquent dood on the block and i dont claim to have a perfect train of thought at all times either.
Ill try to be more thoughtful in my post knowing that ill be labeled, directed and scrutinized more then just talked to.
I will say this ... returning to our borders to wait for the rise of the new Caliphate is not an option.
Radical Islam is an aggressive and expansionist religion/political system, with a goal of converting or exterminating non-believers. It already has some footholds in the United States, especially in Michigan.
Islamists do not want peace. They want non-muslims dead or enslaved, women hidden under burlap bags, and sisters or wives killed for looking at another man.
If you want a look at what these people are doing in the name of religion, this is a good place to read.
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/
I dont disagree with you in part Ab, i guess what ive been trying to spit out is that its the things our government does in our countries name is what further fuels these peoples hate for us! Nevermind the radical directions they run with on ther own.
Thats is why i referenced Nugan Hand. So people might do some reading on some of our foriegn policies and maybe start to see just why some many in this world hate us. Also to see the level we will stoop to to intervene in peoples business for our own benifit no matter how sinister the prize.
Is it to late to let these folks know who us americans are for real instead of them continually forming opinion's of USA based on often shady, greed driven and elitist policies. I mean seriously if not for all of our shady politic's and bombings and crap over there do you still think they would hate us so much?I dont know, never will know now.
I do know that there are some very peaceful muslims to be found yet so you cant over generalize them and still be fair.
You know we all worship the same God? Interesting eh?
It wouldnt kill us to take a step back and focus on ourselves at home for a bit instead of succumbing to this constant injection of propaganda that seeks to justify the next conquest over there IMO. Addressing some of the pockets we have living right here amounst us for example! YES i know we can do both im just saying more focus here for a while. We dont have an unlimited supply of polititions contrary what anti big government doods would have you believe.
No there are no simple answers here and the issues we face have been around for 1000's of years. The point of my post was to discuss how our very own "representatives" have made this 10x worse then it should be thru various corruptions.
Think about it they have Tech because of us, they have weapons because of us and probably most important they have $$$ because of our insatiable appetite for Oil. Yes i understand there are other buyers and suppliers but were still the biggest client by our own design altho China may pass us soon if they havent already.
Oil that we dont even need... I mean think about it we have been FUNDING them for a long time!! We have our hand in every aspect of there #1 commodity and again we literally could live without any of it. But no.. we buy bigger vehicles that use more??? Buy endless amounts of plastic junk made from that same oil, just because we can? We can do nothing to shift our interest elseware in the world for those needs? Why is it that we americans never boycott in this case? Well other than french fries.. Why do we hardly ever consider WHERE we buy things? Why are we always focused on that area??
Same thing with China insomuch as dumping $$$ in a country that could possibly end up becoming an issue.
yes its late and i may not being making a ton of sense!
It was a "cliff note" version... (I.E. Black congressional members, Mayors, etc. were in office after the civil war ended and the North Occupied the South with troops... Which all ended in an agreement between the two political parties that the Republicans could have the black votes of 2 certain states, and thus the white house, as long as the North pulled their remaining troops out of the south. From that point black voting went down because there was much more pressure from the white community to keep them from voting (ex: KKK). This is also a rather brief version.)Quote:
Originally Posted by [AK]Hylander
Perhaps it's the fact you type one thing, and then claim to mean something else later? It's not an automatic response.. I'm responding to your own assertions. Nothing more.Quote:
Originally Posted by [AK]Cruiser
I think the main reason they "hate us so much" is simple jealousy.
They're living in third world countries, under repressive regimes, and they're spoon fed dogma from leaders who use the same to keep them under their thumb.
When they can point to a convenient villian (The US and Israel) it distracts the populace from thinking about where the REAL trouble lies.
So yeah, Iraq is important. Give the region an example of a thriving democracy and real freedom, and the convenient scapegoat disappears. The despots and theocrats hate us and oppose us at every turn because they realize that success in Iraq spells their defeat.
So yeah, the solution is not to curl up in a ball and try to appease everyone. The solution is to help form a thriving arab democracy in the heart of the mess. And suck it up despite the hard work and high cost in terms of money and blood.
Nobody else can do it but Americans. Nobody else.
And nobody can stop us from winning but ourselves (and our lilly-livered press.)
Glad our offer has had such a positive effect:
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/0....sw653dwn.html
We need to stop the BS and start taking a few of these sites out.
I agree that there is envy.
I also think alot of the hatred towards us reguardless of its roots comes from a minority of the people but its portrayed to us by are own media as if its the majority and we bite it hook line and sinker. Especially the radical downright evil mess. It just isnt of the large scale its made out to be.
These bad attitudes towards us are fueled further by ignorance, questionable policies,unecessary deaths, bad business and just general dishonesty from those representing us.
All you have to do is step outside of our media do some digging and its not hard to find stories a little closer to the truth.
Hell forget our media alltogether, its a friggin joke. Read world news, blogs from REAL soldiers, translated independent newspapers. ANYTHING but our politically driven muck.
World and independant newspapers are every bit as biased as the US media.
Well of course but you have to admit our media has it down to a fine Art. One has to read multiple sources and call something in between them the truth i reckon lol.